Expedition Leaders...

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

Who was the best?  Who was your favorite?

What storyline do you think we would have seen if Torri Higginson had been willing to come back (not that I blame her--heard a very interesting interview with her over that)?  Was killing Elizabeth so soon after killing Carson a mistake for the show?  What storyline, if any, would you have liked to have seen for Elizabeth in general?

Was Sam Carter the logical choice for expedition leader?  Did they utilize her character properly?  Do you think Sam as expedition leader bore any resemblance to Sam as we knew her in SG-1?  Was it possible to introduce a character such as her, that essentially could overrule and upstage both John and Rodney, and still use her well?  What storyline would you have liked to have seen focus on Sam?

Was Woolsey a logical choice to replace Sam?  Was he a good choice?  Do you think John and Rodney and the rest of the expedition would have 'corrupted' him in the end?  Do you think he would go back with Atlantis to Pegasus?  What if Atlantis was 'stolen' by the expedition and returned to Pegasus.  Would he go then?

Who do you think would have made the best expedition leader?  Who would you like to see as the next expedition leader?

Comments

[theeverdream.livejournal.com]

I definitely liked Weir as a leader, although the others were certainly interesting too. Personally if shows are going to lose an actor I don't mind the character being killed... I like the emotional impact.

Sam as leader... I liked her fine but I feel like if I had been her I would have wanted to be in a different place, maybe as captain or technician on a ship.

Woolsey... well, I think he would feel that he already had been corrupted to some extent.. take Remnants for example, where he hasn't quite been "in line" enough for the IOA. I think he might have wanted to go back if the expedition stole Atlantis but I'm not sure if he would have been in a position to.. I can see him being physically separate from the others like in Washington for IOA debriefings or whatever.

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

I definitely liked Weir as a leader, although the others were certainly interesting too. Personally if shows are going to lose an actor I don't mind the character being killed... I like the emotional impact.

That's a tough one for me. I've been devastated when a favorite actor left a show and they killed the character off. On the other hand, I couldn't see Elizabeth choosing to leave Atlantis unless she was forced to step down, so killing her wasn't out of line. However, in this case, I believe Torri still had a contract; they killed the character to bring in Amanda Tapping after SG-1 finally ended. According to what I've read, TPTB wouldn't give Torri a straight answer as to how many episodes she would be in as a recurring character when they introduced the Replicator theme and so when she was asked back for the episode with where she was given Fran's body ("Be All My Sins Remembered"?)Torri said no to the role.

I heard an interview tacked on to the end of an audiobook read by her where Torri spoke of wanting closure with Elizabeth's story. I found myself saying, "Me too, honey." :-)

Sam as leader... I liked her fine but I feel like if I had been her I would have wanted to be in a different place, maybe as captain or technician on a ship. I would have loved to have seen her with a ship of her own. I think they were *forced* to under utilize her in SGA because if they used Sam as she'd previously been written, then she would either be taking over John's or Rodney's role in each story.

Yes, I have a hard time seeing Woolsey going back if Atlantis was stolen...I can see him subversively helping the 'liberation' movement, but like you said, perhaps not being in a position to be there when the city had to be launched.

[theeverdream.livejournal.com]

Ah, I hadn't really known the particulars of TH leaving the show.

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

I don't usually follow scuttlebutt too closely, but I wanted to know if Torri was coming back or not, so I kept reading stuff as it came about. :-)

[calcitrix.livejournal.com]

I would have been happy with Elizabeth staying on the whole time. I thought she was a good mix of what they needed on Atlantis. And they actually used her a decent amount, you know, like she played the role of leader really well especially when folk from the SGC came around or there were tough decisions to make. I liked that she didn't back John 100% every time, either, but called him on his stunts when he needed it.

Sam...man, they really could have used her differently. I thought she fell a little flat as a leader. She was just sort of there; felt like John called the shots and she took his advice a lot. And she never did anything particularly brilliant (for fear of upstaging Rodney, I'm sure), which was a shame. I think her best moment was in "The Last Man" and that didn't even technically happen. It's possible that I was expecting more because of all the neat stuff she did while part of SG-1, though. Would have loved to see her work on something with Rodney! ZPMs! Robots! Anything.

Woolsey...I ended up really liking him. For all that he seemed out of his league at first he really became loyal to Atlantis and I think he felt like he owed them the best he could give (even if it conflicted with what the NID wanted sometimes). Maybe it was his honesty, IDK. If they stole Atlantis, he might make the split-decision to go, have a minor freak-out, and then be amazing once there was no one from Earth giving him directions all the time.

[oceania.livejournal.com]

I thought Sam was the perfect choice but they used her incorrectly. She ended up boring and she was nevee boring on SG-1.

Surprisingly, I LOVED WOOLSEY. Please don't de-flist me. I mean the firing of Torri aside, I really liked what they did with his character. I loved the way he came to understnad the "truth" about himself and began to fight for his "people". I think season 6 would have rocked. sigh.

I think an interesting choice would have been Daniel but I'm not sure he has the kinds of skills that make him the right choice. It's a difficult role to cast and they should have left it well enough alone probably. Still, a huge Robert Picardo fan though.

The killing off of Weir didn't upset me, but it was a nasty, short-sighted move. I think they treated the actress like shit because they thought that Amanda would beef up ratings or something but having her not "clash" with Rodney and so much in the background ruined their own "coup".

Ultimately, I think that Joe's comments on the subject are the most important. He thought they treated her badly and was pissed. He commented on how incredibly sexy and alluring she was. And I squee over that because he apparently does not like teenagers...but mature grown up women his age. ALL HAIL JOE.

[tygtig.livejournal.com]

I liked Elizabeth as a leader and I was miffed when they killed her. But of course they had to kill her if they wanted her off, she would never have retired. And plot-wise, I think it was good, I have a feeling Atlantis would eventually have had to secede from earth if they hadn't taken her away, there was a slow conflict building with earth and the IOA.
Sam didn't work as a leader, wich was a surprise to me. I LOVE her character (come on, who wouldn't want to be Sam?) and was happy to see her replace Elizabeth. But she was to much like John and Rodney rolled into one, a competent military and a science genius - she didn't play off the other characters much, they basically just liked her. But I did like Johns comment that he respected her more than any other commanding officer he ever had.

Woolsey was a complete success in my book. I was SO pissed when they introduced him, but he really won me over. Good plotwise, created a lot of tension with the other characters and he was something different - a stuffy bureaucrat who's a sticker for the rules, and turns out to be a quite shrewd diplomat with a trace of dry humour. They definitely did corrupt him, he started to side with the expedition instead of IOA pretty quickly.
I like to think that he would not have gone to Pegasus if they stole Atlantis, but instead facilitated the escape and continued to work "behind the scenes" to rustle up as much support as possible for them afterwards. I think Woolsey could become quite powerful if he put his mind to it.

[oran.livejournal.com]

Interesting series of questions.

On a straightforward scale I didn't actually like any of them. For me, Elizabeth should have been a recurring role in the mould of Gen. Hammond. Personally I found her too school ma'am-ish and thus hard to take seriously. I would have preferred it if they had openly explored her conflict with John over a period of time and actually shown us Elizabeth in action, not just 'told' us and kept on telling us how much the expedition loved her. I wanted to see Elizabeth go off world more and to see her exploring the city more. I would also have liked to have seen more of her past, maybe a bit of political murk surfacing, a brush with the Trust or some such. However, they had already killed off Carson, imho killing off Elizabeth was stupid, especially for the the reasons they did it. But for me, from the demise of SG1 onwards Atlantis was always gonna be doomed.

Carter was... well Carter. I disliked the character on SG1 and I disliked her in Atlantis. Tabula Rasa was the only episode where I felt Tapping actually brought anything to the show. Trio was a piece of writers/producers self indulgence that I prefer not to dwell on. Did they use her position well? Not for me. Would I have liked to have seen conflict with Rodney and John? Yes but not the way those writers would have written it because Carter would have ground them both into the dirt and they'd have thanked her for it in the end because she's just so 'nice' about it. Not sure how we avoided that really, but glad we did. Even her defence of Rodney to Colonel A-hole was weak. I would have liked to have seen the professionalism of all three characters focused on. I'd have liked to have seen Sam's personal reasons for taking the post. A series of professional situations where sometimes she was right and sometimes she was wrong and how that was handled so that when John says she's the best commanding officer etc etc etc we understand why. Not just becuase she's Sam Carter and the world adores her.

Wolsey was okay for the commedic value I guess. From a political standpoint I can see why he was a good choice to replace Carter but that whole aspect was hardly/badly explored. I think Picardo is a great actor and I think he did more with crap material than either of the other two so...

I would have loved to have seen a S6 where he truly changed sides and almost reluctantly/accidentally ended up being part of a team that stole Atlantis and returned to Pegasus, where he used his not inconsiderable political and legal skills to negotiate a secession. There would have been plenty of material there to make a season's worth of episodes in my view.

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

I rather expected Elizabeth's character to be more of a recurring role myself, in the manner of General Hammond. I liked that they chose a woman to lead such an expedition and that it was not primarily a military one.

That having been said, I would have liked to have seen more of the day-to-day running of Atlantis stuff. I know, that probably would have made for boring storytelling, but they had to have been planning for the possibility of never regaining contact with Earth. What were they planning to do when they ran out of bullets? Or coffee?

I thought Sam was flat and wooden too and I think a large part of it was because to really use her would have undermined the roles that both John and Rodney played in the city and on the show. There were some nice little moments of deleted scenes on the S4 dvd and little things like that could have offset some of that feeling. I agree with you, one of her best moments was in that scene in The Last Man. I would have liked to have seen her and Rodney work on something together as well--and have Rodney finally get over his crush to the extent that he could work with her as a colleague and not someone he was trying to impress by being all superior and rude to her! :-)

Maybe it was his honesty, IDK. If they stole Atlantis, he might make the split-decision to go, have a minor freak-out, and then be amazing once there was no one from Earth giving him directions all the time.

I like this assessment of Woolsey. Maybe if he made Teyla his 2IC? :-)

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about the way Sam ended up being portrayed on SGA. I found myself wondering how much of it had to do with being promoted out of the field and behind a desk and how much of it was a realization that she really duplicated what John and Rodney brought to the show as characters.

I wouldn't de-flist you for liking Woolsey! I liked him myself--or rather I did until Inquisition. I disliked that episode in general and I disliked the way they had him handle the situation (ie, bribing a panel member). I think they could have handled that better.

I would have liked to have seen Daniel in Atlantis, but I agree, not as expedition leader. I'd worry he'd get lost in the database and forget the little matter of the Wraith. :-)

Joe said at one of the cons I attended that bringing Amanda on the show (being quick to point out that he had nothing against Amanda) was a 'lateral' move, though for the actress or the character I'm not sure. He definitely indicated displeasure at both her departure and that of Paul McGillion and said that he thought TPTB were hoping for a ratings boost from former SG-1 fans, which he thought was silly since he felt most of them were watching already.

I can certainly see where having a popular actress like Amanda Tapping fulfill the remainder of her contract out on SGA seemed to make sense to TPTB at the time, particularly with their mindset of 'let's shake things up by killing someone', but there seem to be hard feelings all around over that and I can't say I blame Torri for not wanting to come back for one episode. It would have been a hard decision for me personally, as I would have gotten so invested in Elizabeth that I would have wanted to see things through. For all we know though, the original script plans might have been something Torri wanted no part of as well.

I hear, too, of actors signing up for contracts, only to have the movie or show get completely re-written before shooting. Can you imagine thinking you've gotten on board for one thing and discovering that the end project will bear no resemblance to what you signed up for?


Ultimately, I think that Joe's comments on the subject are the most important. He thought they treated her badly and was pissed. He commented on how incredibly sexy and alluring she was. And I squee over that because he apparently does not like teenagers...but mature grown up women his age. ALL HAIL JOE.

I always liked the fact that he felt strongly about the loss of people on the set and though he was trying to be diplomatic about it, he wasn't afraid to say what he thought. :-)

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything you say here--I started to pick pieces out and support them but I should just point to your comment and nod. :-)

I like to think that he would not have gone to Pegasus if they stole Atlantis, but instead facilitated the escape and continued to work "behind the scenes" to rustle up as much support as possible for them afterwards. I think Woolsey could become quite powerful if he put his mind to it.

I do like this in particular though. :-)

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

It's interesting to me that you dislike Carter as a character. I'd have to say that Sam and Daniel are the two characters I like the most from SG-1. Carter in many ways is a unique role model for women in sci-fi because she so often was 'one of the boys'. I mean that in the best way possible--that she was simply accepted as being a part of the team, that her gender didn't enter into it most of the time (the reason why I feel the franchise treated her better than most of their women character depictions). By the time we were shown more of Carter's personal life, it was kind of like, "wow, she can be really smart and tough *and* sexy when the occasion calls for it!"

because Carter would have ground them both into the dirt and they'd have thanked her for it in the end because she's just so 'nice' about it. Not sure how we avoided that really, but glad we did

I suspect by not using her at all :-(

A series of professional situations where sometimes she was right and sometimes she was wrong and how that was handled so that when John says she's the best commanding officer etc etc etc we understand why. Yes. But as someone said above, there was a lot of telling with Elizabeth as opposed to showing as well.

I would have loved to have seen a S6 where he truly changed sides and almost reluctantly/accidentally ended up being part of a team that stole Atlantis and returned to Pegasus, where he used his not inconsiderable political and legal skills to negotiate a secession. There would have been plenty of material there to make a season's worth of episodes in my view.

That's an interesting take on Woolsey! Now I am torn between which version I see taking place in my head!

[oran.livejournal.com]

You see this, your first paragraph, is why I love fandom and comms like this one soooooo much. You see exactly the opposite to what I see and that is just so interesting. For me the Carter of SG1 was so perfect, so smart, tough and sexy, so one of the boys, she was unreal. But... I tended to view the characters in SG1 as archetypes, which is why I preferred SGA because the characters seemed more real, more human somehow; even the one's I disliked.

I have to admit that given the choice between 'perfect golden girl Carter' making the regular cast look stupid and under used Carter I'll take the latter. Probably why I think that entire role should have been recurring not regular and used sparingly when needed. Similarly with the role of the doctor. Neither Paul nor Jewel should ever have been made regulars imo. That way the 'Doctor McCoy on the bridge' syndrome that they fell into so often could have easily been avoided.

I can't help feeling that the show as a whole had a lot of telling and not enough showing which is probably truly indicative of poor writing. I'm a plot girl through and through but you don't bend your characters out of shape or introduce sudden traits never even hinted at before just for the sake of an, all too often, weak plot point.

*giggles* I think Woolsey is a character so many fan writers can have so much fun with.

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

I can't help feeling that the show as a whole had a lot of telling and not enough showing which is probably truly indicative of poor writing. I'm a plot girl through and through but you don't bend your characters out of shape or introduce sudden traits never even hinted at before just for the sake of an, all too often, weak plot point.

Lordy, I agree with you here 100%. I would routinely get pissed with the show for forcing the characters to make stupid decisions in order to make a weak plot work!

[artemis-prime.livejournal.com]

I never appreciated Elizabeth until she was gone. She had been a grounding presence for the expedition and a good contrast to John, especially in the first season. She was strong-willed and intelligent, but sometimes seemd unwilling to listen to opposite viewpoints (re: her confrontations with Halling in S1). Actually, that whole Earth vs Pegasus traditions and beliefs would have been a wonderful avenue for the writers to go on. I think Elizabeth could have been kept even after becoming a Replicator. Wouldn't that have made for some good drama to have the enemy within the walls of Atlantis?

Sam was a likeable character, but I didn't really get anything from her. She was just "there". As others have pointed out, there wasn't any conflict with Rodney. But what I really disliked about having Sam in command was that there was no longer any conflict with Sheppard. He had to do what she wanted because she was his superior officer. End of story (they showed military conflict with him and Caldwell).

Woolsey was someone I was all set to dislike, but The Seed changed my mind. When he spoke of his little dog and the pain he felt from his divorce, well, he sold me. Atlantis was a new life for him, scary and wonderful as that would be. Part of the new life is taking on new challenges and maybe becoming more personable would be one of them. I liked how he listened to both sides and came to reasoned conclusions.

Had the writers more creativity, I'm sure that this discussion wouldn't be happening :)

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

She was strong-willed and intelligent, but sometimes seemd unwilling to listen to opposite viewpoints (re: her confrontations with Halling in S1).

That scene didn't quite work for me. I could appreciate her 'I don't have time for this right now approach' but it felt like she was actually forbidding Halling to carry on his ceremony without her and she seemed very disrespectful of his beliefs. I don't it would have take much to fix the scene. A slightly different wording or delivery perhaps. If she'd laid a hand on Halling's arm and said, "I realize this is a rare opportunity for your people to observe a ritual that is very important to you. I respect and honor that. But among my people, as long as there is still a chance of survival, we never give up searching for a solution. What you're asking me to do here feels like you are asking me to give up. I can't do that."

I agree with you, they introduced Sam without really thinking through the ramifications of it. In order to make it appear that she wasn't trampling on anyone's toes, they had to make it look like no one had any problems with her--which is why her summary removal (despite knowing *why* AT left) felt like it came out of nowhere. TBH, it felt like she was being removed because someone thought she *wasn't* doing a good job, no matter what everyone said around the briefing table. It's funny, you can know that Amanda Tapping left because Sanctuary got picked up (and she really needed to put Sam Carter behind her and move on to another long-term character, I'm sure), but it still felt like someone somewhere was unhappy with her!

I was ambivalent about Woolsey. I was prepared to see more conflict between him and SGA-1 then we got and I was worried about that--concerned that it would sideline the team and detract from the main characters. Hah. That happened anyway and Woolsey had nothing to do with it. I thought the changing into suits in the evening was a bit too quirky for Woolsey as a character, but then I couldn't really see him in casual clothing either, so I guess not.

I liked him up until Inquisition. Frankly, I rather disliked *everyone* in Inquisition and when I am feeling paranoid, I wonder if on some level, that wasn't the point. :-) But yeah, uptight man missing his Yorkie? That made him human to me.

Had the writers more creativity, I'm sure that this discussion wouldn't be happening :)

My initial reaction was to nod along with you here but I think the writers had a lot of creativity. They had poor follow-through. Sure, they had budget constraints and time constraints but some of the things I've been hearing about the way the show was run just seem weird to me (like the lack of actor-runthroughs). They would come up with a great idea and slap it down on paper, willfully ignoring even major plot holes and coming up with ways of patching the hole instead of really fixing it. Even when it wasn't possible to bring a certain actor back for a specific part, they could have mentioned that person in conversation. A single line here or there could have gone a long way to solving some of their continuity issues.

Ooops, speaking of time, I'm going to be late for work again... :-)

[kimboosan.livejournal.com]

Given how little I've seen of the show, I don't think I can say much to Elizabeth or Sam; I like both actresses and Sam is my favorite character from SG-1, so I'm sure I would not hate either; from what few eps I've seen, I have to say that I kind of agree that Sam was written poorly and came across as very flat, which is too bad. I agree that having her mix it up more with John would have made sense, and added an interesting element to the mix. After all, Sam knows crazy - O'Neill, anyone? - and probably has a low threshold for bullshit because of it. I did not see that in the eps I've seen with her in it.

I can say that what I know of Elizabeth's character, I liked - given her diplomatic background, she was surprisingly unique choice to head the expedition, and it seems a shame that was not explored as much in the show as it is in fanfic! LOL!

As for Woolsey - I really liked him in Inquisition, and I think he would totally side with an independent Atlantis. See, everyone views Woolsey was a bureaucrat, but he's just a professional bureaucrat. At heart he's a LAWYER. I remember a law friend commented to me how politically-motivated appointment of judges usually backfired, simply because the majority of law students - particularly the smart ones - will always, always stay true to the law more than to politics. Sure their personal opinions count, but when it comes down to it, they hold themselves to a higher order and up being surprisingly uncontrollable, as I think is exactly the case with Woolsey.

Which doesn't make sense, at first, until you think about the IOA. What law are they held to, really? I totally think that if Woolsey believed that the founding charter of the Atlantis expedition was being corrupted by the IOA, he would have no problem moving against it. Yes, in inquisition he bribed one of the panelists, but again, the charges were being levied by an unrecognized body and sort of randomly applied. He simply played by the "set of laws" given to him. The man was a genius.

So while I can't compare him to the others in good conscious, I think Woolsey was an excellent expedition leader. /my 2 cents

[kimboosan.livejournal.com]

I think the writers had a lot of creativity. They had poor follow-through.

From what I've seen and read about the show, I think you nailed it here. Creativity was on the mark - the characters, the setting, the villains were all top notch. The banter between the characters was great. Ronon in particular was an excellent master stroke of character introduction, what with everything his history implied. But follow through? SUCKED. I'm a continuity whore in most of my fandoms, but in SGA I just have to hold my breath. :( And their choices on character arc for Carson, Elizabeth, Ford and even Teyla just stinks of rank amateurism.

[tygtig.livejournal.com]

I liked Woolsey in inquisition too, I liked him showing up with that "Hah - this is MY backyard so kindly shut up, boys and girls" in his very bureaucratic way. I've never thought about that lawyer/politician dicotomy though (probably since we don't have that system in Sweden) but it makes sense.

I liked the fact that he bribed the panel because it showed that he, too, had that ability to adapt and change in Pegasus. And I kind of like the "I'll stick to the rules. Until I really need to break them."-attitude.

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

I'm a continuity whore in most of my fandoms, but in SGA I just have to hold my breath.

I'm thinking SGA has to be kinda painful for you at times. :-) They had a relatively small stable of regular writers and they still couldn't decide how to portray their characters sometimes...

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

Yes, in inquisition he bribed one of the panelists, but again, the charges were being levied by an unrecognized body and sort of randomly applied. He simply played by the "set of laws" given to him. The man was a genius.

You make a good point about the conditions as presented to him in Inquisition. I just had a problem with the way the whole ep was written in the first place.

To start, it was a clip episode, which are problematic to begin with. Clip eps tend to be sketchily written with lots of review of previous shows as a money saving bid towards the end of a season. But they took this great idea, launched it and let it fall flat.

Sheppard took a 'but we're the good guys' approach to self-defense and trotted out the worst responses to all of the accusations. Everything he said was shot down and he was not given a legitimate opportunity to present a counter argument.

TBF, one could argue that the Atlantis expedition is guilty of enormous crimes against humanity, for which there is little adequate response. This is where we get into a 'either/or' situation for me. Either the expedition is guilty with no redeeming value (and there is no defense) or they have done some good in Pegasus and let's hear the defense.

We never got to hear any decent defense as far as I can tell and then Woolsey sweeps in an makes in a political win instead. I just found that incredibly depressing--gave me a bad taste for the expedition and Team Sheppard.

It's not that I think Woolsey had very many options here. But I would have liked to have at least *one* person give an accounting of some of the good the expedition has done. You know?

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

I liked the fact that he bribed the panel because it showed that he, too, had that ability to adapt and change in Pegasus. And I kind of like the "I'll stick to the rules. Until I really need to break them."-attitude.

I just would have liked for them at some point during the episode to have presented a stronger case for themselves. Much of what occurred in canon *is* indefensible, but the way the defense was handled during the 'trial', well, they needed better lawyers! ;-)